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Post by Ralf g on Dec 14, 2004 18:34:31 GMT -5
Me again....
Have been offert a job about 5000 km away from home!
Rate: stupid Euros per hour !
The gardener down the road charges me the same rate
All I wanne say......DO NOT TAKE IT IF U CAN ......!!!!!
We are still a special trade, lets keep it that way, otherwise the gardener will take Your job....
...most companies dont seme to care anyway...
More manpower + less costs = crap quality !!
It is time to talk guys...or is the answer Alias ?!
I dont think so...........
Regards
Ralf
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Post by visitor on Dec 15, 2004 14:19:59 GMT -5
hi ralf,
first the industry looked for the cheapest sollution. outsourcing was the magic word. now they go one step further and make it a little bit cheaper by cutting our wages down. and when you read the agents mail for this job well you see already the future coming up:
we should train their permies (or is this already your gardener...?)
regards and a merry christmas
a visitor
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Post by Jeff McGahey on Dec 16, 2004 11:15:14 GMT -5
Hello Ralf,
A point that I think you might have missed is that circumstances can be enormously different in other parts of the world. I am all for maintaining the hourly rate for Modellers but the hourly rate is not the only factor in deciding to take a new contract, for instance what are the accomodation costs, what is the cost of living locally, transport costs, how many hours allowed and don't forget the exchange rate. What is the Agent paying for?
You have to consider all these things with any other opportunities that might be available to you at the time.
If you have to live away from home for a long period because of the distance you have to consider how much money you are sending home each month, this is usually the deciding factor at the end of the day.
When we were on contract in the 70s in Sweden our hourly rate was three times as much as England but when we arrived there we found the cost of living was twice as much (four pounds a pint) but we still made money.
So the hourly rate is relative to where you earn it, your gardener would be earning a lot more in California and he wouldn't lose any time because of the weather. That would increase his income without a rise in his hourly rate but if he worked in Siberia he would find it hard to scratch a living.
Jeff.
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Post by visitor on Dec 18, 2004 15:20:09 GMT -5
Recently offered a contract in Japan at a rather poor rate for the country.
Subsequently found out that the agencies had been in a price cutting war with our wages, each undercutting the other, knowing that when the dust settles there will always be a modeller or two prepared to accept it.
What is happening to our industry?
Maybe its the right time (when things are hard) for modellers to stick together.
Many years ago an old Ford modeller spoke about a modellers Guild/union, perhaps this historic solution for improving workers conditions and rights, should now be considered?
And discuss.
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ralf
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Post by ralf on Dec 21, 2004 19:19:17 GMT -5
Hi Jeff and all of u ! It is not all money I am talking about...it is more about the position u have got these days as a modeller ! I think , as most people I know, that u cannot go out and work for the same money as u gardener earns at the same time at home. Dont get me wrong, me misses has got nothing with the gardener...but the risk is always there... !? Reliase the flexibility u offer all the time ! And what about the overtime u do !? Payed for working weekends ...and keeped u mouth shout ?!! and ...and...and... To replace a good contract modeller ,..the company has to employ how many permanent modellers  !!!!!! Agent A offers X amount euros per hour to the Company Agent B offers X-5 Agent C offers X -4..........................................and so on Every Agent takes still the same amount of the money YOU are working for...and it does not matter where u are at the time . To make it more cleare for everyone... A says : u can have a modeller for 100 % Company says : to expensive ! B says: ours only cost u 80 % Company says : thats better ! C says ours are the cheepest, we are 50 % !!! Of course C will get the deal ! But in the and of the day this company thinks to have saved money, but as we all know : A crap modeller only costs u money" !! Still my point is :::: Do not thake a cheap deal if u can affort it... in the interrest of all of us ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be a MODELLER or stay with what u have learned ! Best regards , an merry christmas and a happy and more succsefull new year 2005 !!!!!!!! RALF |
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Post by FrankD on Dec 22, 2004 6:36:34 GMT -5
This is a very good example.  I think you are right, this is the reason for the down diving rates !! |
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Post by Dave J on Dec 28, 2004 18:41:37 GMT -5
Interesting thread on the Japan contract, I should know I went.
Not the best contract.
Also interesting idea about a guild or union. Working for R.L.E. (sadly not enough) I would be interested in a professional body of experienced/professional/recommended clay modellers, who may not be known to me personly, but who could be relied upon.
Would other studio/modelling managers feel the same?
Would the agencies support and encourage this sort of self regulation?
Would this improve the industries proffessional standing and therefore improve rates?
Are there enough modellers brave enough to commit to such an enterprise?
And finally, is there anybody with the nerve to organise it?
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Post by old Ford modeller on Jan 2, 2005 3:00:31 GMT -5
Just to set the record straight, I was a contractor at the time i suggested an Association of Clay Modellers, even forked out money to get information and documentation to form it. At an annual cost of a few dollars/euros to each modeller and the participation of agents and studios it would have protected all parties involved. Monitoring rates, reccomending good agents and making sure the studios got the best modellers availible at the time. Sadly, I could not get enough support, but at that time everything looked very good.
P.S I am now an ' Old Ford Modeller. "
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markf
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Post by markf on Jan 3, 2005 3:33:54 GMT -5
The agencies are largely responsible.
To go back to the Japan contract, the rates and expenses were at the beginning very good. The job was put out to number of agencies who by competing with each other to get the job drastically reduced the rate.
Which is understandable from their point of view, however they still expect to make the same money. so the rate reduction is passed on to the contractor.
There is one larger well known agency based in the UK who is particularly responsible for this!
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Post by Visitor on Jan 3, 2005 11:17:00 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some rather disgruntled people out there at the moment. Agencies have always been a double edged sword, they provide a service which costs us money.
It would take a major upheaval in the automotive industry, especially in accounts, for agencies to become redundant. Therefore, the contractors who use them have to regain control.
Agencies should realise that whilst things are not so good out there they may have the upper hand, but if the car world has a turn around then maybe contractors will have long memories.
I would like to here more about an association of modellers. Perhaps it could then work with the agencies to keep the workers happy as well as the studios.
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Post by Mr C on Jan 3, 2005 12:02:22 GMT -5
Reading through the different posts and other subjects I am encouraged to see some real developments.
Great idea about the Agency page. This could be the first step towards informing and communicating our problems and solutions to the agencies in a positive way.
Ive also noted that over 300 modellers have logged on to this post, is this the begining of an association?
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DaveC
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Post by DaveC on Jan 6, 2005 13:10:40 GMT -5
It sadly appears to me that the glory days of contracting during the 80s and 90s is well and truly over.
Our industry has been going through a slump for at least the last five years with no sign of any immediate u-turn.
As for this topic "cheap labour", the hourly rates of today are similar to the hourly rate you could get fifteen years ago!.
I know of many hard and fast contractors who have been on the curcuit for years who are now taking permi jobs because of the shortage of decent contracts.
Huge amounts of people leaving the automotive industry because of the lack of quality positions left in it.
We can only hope that those of us that are still left plying our trades see a quick and lucrative return to the good old days.
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Post by GUEST on Jan 7, 2005 15:14:19 GMT -5
Interesting points of view from all the modelers on this subject ( An association of modelers) A touch of reality is needed here.Everybody knows that we are individuals.Every modeler man or woman is out for theirselves.As multitasking and talented as we are,there is no getting away from it.if someone you work with has his contract terminated,would anybody step up and say (If he goes then we all go) I think not.We are offered a position for a certain rate by the agemt.If we accept this ,then we have no need to complain.We have accepted this contract for a price.If you think you are worth more, then you negotiate with the agent.Companies pay the agent and the agent pays you.Remember, nobody owes you anything.
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Post by guest on Jan 10, 2005 14:16:14 GMT -5
Realty check, all well and good, but this attitude of "Im in it for myself" has led us to a sorry state of affairs.
This is highlighted several times on this chat page, in several different postings, over a long period of time.
Nobody I think is talking of a Union, the cries of "all out, we are on strike" is not a thinkable sceniaro.
But, maybe some self regulated organisation would be a starting point to regain respect amongst our peers.
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Post by illbeinthepub on Jan 11, 2005 10:58:22 GMT -5
hi all...
ive been reading the msn`s you`ve all been writing about cheap larbour.... as pointed out by an other member the agents have the upper hand at the moment, and some do treat us contracters bad. (speaking about personal acts that the agents have done to me and others i know very well ) a union of clay modellers would be a very good ideal. and also with un-fair dismissals. but there are 3 points we would need to think about. 1 who will run this as i think it maybe abit of a full time job. 2 if it is a full time job how will there be paid. 3 and how many of us would be willing to sign up to this?
i have alot of time to think about this as i`ve been told i have to take 6 weeks off with two broken wrists lol never mind
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!!!!!!
